Alexandre
Since Maserati is under the management of Stellantisgoodbye to the volumes and hello to the luxury positioning and profitability. As we saw with first the MC20, then the Grecale, and more recently the MC20 Cielo and the new Granturismo, the finish has taken a leap forward, as have the prices.
A choice perfectly assumed by Stellantis since Maserati is the only luxury brand of the group. While in the FCA era, it was a race to make as many sales as possible, under the Stellantis era, it is the Maserati's profitability before volumes that is sought after.
Moreover, it is not for nothing that Maserati doubled its profitability in 2022 for almost the same volume of sales as 2021. We also know that commercially, for the latest models, just like Ferrari, they are presented exclusively to the best customers of the brand.
Now that we know the Ferrari 2022 figuresand the Lamborghini's 2022 figuresLet's compare them with brands like Porsche, Bentley, McLaren, Aston Martin, Bugatti and Rolls-Royce.
| Sales 2022 | CA 2022 | Profit 2022 | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Maserati | 25 900 | 2.32 billion | 201 million |
| Ferrari | 13 221 | 5.09 billion | 2.375 billion |
| Lamborghini | 9 233 | 939 million | 614 million |
| Bentley | 15 174 | 3.38 billion | 708 million |
| Porsche | 309 884 | 37.6 billion | 8.72 billion |
| Aston Martin | 6 412 | 1.57 billion €. | 215 million |
| McLaren | NC | NC | NC |
| Bugatti | 80 | 331 million | -33 million |
| Rolls-Royce | 6 021 | NC | NC |
When reading this table it is easy to see that the best student is Ferrari with the best ratio of sales / turnover / profit.
Porsche is the brand with the highest sales volume. It can thank its two SUVs, first Macan with over 86,000 sales, then Cayenne with over 95,000 sales. Porsche's sales and profits are proportionally impressive. For comparison, Stellantis' profit is 16.8 billion euros in 2022.
A brand like Aston Martin, which has been in trouble in recent years, makes more turnover than Lamborghini, but much less profit. This is certainly due to the large investments needed to launch new models but also in the Formula 1 team.
McLaren has yet to release 2022 numbers. Bugatti is more of an ultra-luxury brand than a luxury brand and the recent resale of the brand to Rimac has probably resulted in the need to make significant investments for future electric 100 % hypercar models. Concerning Rolls-Royce, we don't know the turnover but we know that the average basket is 500 000 €. We would therefore be at a little over 3 billion euros of turnover.
In the end, we understand better than we do now, Stellantis is not interested in making more sales with Maserati compared to previous years. Maserati's two objectives for the coming years will be to increase sales and, above all, profits. Stellantis could want to double Maserati's turnover, and multiply the profit by 10, for the same sales volume.
For the sake of projection and comparison, if Maserati's sales were multiplied by 10, the turnover could approach that of Porsche, but the profit would remain at least 4 times lower.
It must be said, Alexandre, that Maserati has come a long way since it recovered its prestige under the Ferrari era with a strategy that is close to the one it has now. The fact that Marchionne wanted to downgrade it from a stage to a prenium and make "a little" more volume was nonsense because the Ghibli should have been found at Alfa and Lancia. At the time Lucas said that Maserati should not exceed 25,000 copies per year to keep its exclusivity and like Ferrari (which should also be done with Alfa and Lancia) so that the products are maintained in value and reserved for a handful of elites. The 4200GT, the Spider, the Quattroporte 5 and the MC12 as well as the GranTurismo and GranCabrio had contributed to this.
Hurricane Marchionne arrived and screwed up everything by releasing products that are more Lancia super than Maserati (don't forget that the Quattroporte 5 was the reference when it came out because the ballerina effect in a limousine is real in this sporty car and it set new reference codes, like the Giulia and Stelvio Quadrifoglio when they came out or the Altezza RS200 or the RX-8 Spirit R in their time)
Unfortunately, we all know that it is easier to destroy a brand image than to make it shine over time.
PS: I have a project in progress for an Alfa GT and once finished if you want to come and try it, it will be with pleasure.
I also think that 25000 is good because in the end when you compare to other brands, if you omit porsche, it's already a lot! Now I'm curious to see if they will succeed in selling a lot of the new models. There are still some luxury car owners I've had the opportunity to meet who were turned off by Maserati in the 2000s.
But beyond rewriting history, knowing Mr. Tavares, he knows perfectly well where he wants to take Maserati in terms of financial performance. And given the price of the MC20, MC20 Cielo, the new Granturismo which easily exceeds 200,000 € configured and the GT2 cars, they are going for it.
The only difference to note is that Maserati is the only brand to go towards electric 100% unlike all the others...
With the political changes, I hope they will back off and offer all 3 types (Thermal/Hybrid/Electric) as well as Alfa and Lancia. The ALL electric is a suicide and even Tavares knows it.
I'm not saying that the 2000's were wonderful but they were going in the right direction and nothing is perfect in luxury.
Marchionne's Ghibli III was worse than the II produced under De Tomaso?
No, it's a great car, but it shouldn't have been released under Maserati but under Alfa and Lancia.
The Ghibli would have been better off with a 2-seat coupe, which Maserati sorely lacks.
Too bad it doesn't take over the Portofino with a new design.
If I'm not mistaken, it was planned that the ghibli would also come out as an alfa because it would replace the 166. Its code name was 941. Then Sergio Marchionne decided that alfa would have its own giorgio platform, etc. This gave birth to the 949 Stelvio, 952 Giulia, etc. I will do an article one day about the alfa Romeo models that never saw the light of day.
Alexandre
When Marchionne arrived at the head of Fiat at the time, the plans were to make an evolution of the 156 on the SportWagon version (4WD propulsion)... it never came to fruition. The studies of the Busso in 3.6 with direct injection... abandoned after having developed it. The platform of the 159 was to be a new Thema (which would have been more easily forgiven for sharing engines).
The Quattroporte 5 was supposed to have a derivative at Alfa and Lancia... that never happened.
The Ghibli was supposed to give a model to Alfa Romeo (the Giuliana)... it never came to fruition.
An independent pole including (Alfa-Lancia-Maserati) had been announced... it never came to fruition. Dead projects born at FCA, the cupboards are full of them.
I am well aware of the alfas, I will do an article on the alfa models that have been abandoned since the Kamal soon.
Alexandre
You could even start with the Nuvola concept of 1996 which prefigured the one that was to be the competitor of the Z3, announced many times and always postponed. It would be quite interesting to have a detailed view of this little jewel.
What do you think of the Ferrari Roma? Wouldn't it be a rebadging of what the Maserati Alfieri should have been in terms of design?
And the MC 20, isn't it what was announced a few years ago as the Alfa 6 C? In any case, the central cell reminds me strongly of a 4C
You seem to keep the image of Lancia as it existed in the 70s. Fifty years later, the Ghibli III could never have been released under the Lancia name. The twin-turbocharged 6-cylinder engine with more than 400 hp is developed by Ferrari and Maserati, while the last Lancia grand tourer never exceeded 200 hp, the car is rear-wheel drive, I'm not telling you anything but Lancia is (or was) a historical specialist of front-wheel drives (and of course of integrals), the chassis is set up to be firm, not really comfortable, in short it's not a model for Lancia at all, and it was far too heavy to be integrated in the Alfa range in my opinion...
I think that making bogus Lancia derivatives on Peugeot chassis will end up massacring the brand because Peugeot hasn't released a rear-wheel drive model since the beginning of the 80s. Their 4WDs were downright fragile. They never had a luxury sports car. The biggest power is 270hp on a 1.6 turbo of 270hp... in front wheel drive (the ultimate).
V6s and V8s have been produced at Lancia, at Peugeot, except for the PRV and the ESl... there's nothing to get up at night and the worst thing is the V6 diesel version which was the best performing.
In the 80s and 90s, Audi's competitor was Lancia... not Peugeot.
Alfa has just regained its place (it takes time and that's normal when you see the descent into hell because of the Italian state). It's time for Lancia to find its place between an Alfa for sport and a Maserati for Sport/prenium/Luxury.
Arnoux
The Ferrari Roma is sublime but I would have liked that Maserati could have inherited a system similar to the portofino as it was planned at its beginning (California), we even had sketches in the form of 4200 in CC. This could have ended up at Alfa and Lancia as well. The Alfieri is a beautiful waste because Maserati sorely misses them, more than the MC12 which was also vital. A plagiarism no because Ferrari always wanted a GT range under the V12 and we can say that the Roma is in the cartons for decades and took the time to come out... project envisaged well but then well before the Alfieri even at the time of Enzo when he released the brand ASA.
The 4C, the 6C and the MC12 have one thing in common... Dallara so it's only logical that they look alike like the Artega, the Venom, the Exige, the Evora, the Emira, the Europa, the Speedster, the Tesla R looks like the Elise.
The models which exceeded 200hp on Lancia Fredo, there are some and at the same time as Maserati, Audi and consort.
Thema, Thesis, Delta.
Lancia became a traction specialist because of its profitability and because the Italian State was a shareholder.
The Thema V8 3.2 does not date back to the 60s/70s, and the same goes for the Thesis which, if it was a failure, was not due to its design but to the fact that it was announced as a rear-wheel drive and 4WD car and was released in... simple traction (and an after-sales service that was not worthy of the name), which was the same problem for the Thema V8 3.2
To this we can add the MonteCarlo (whose main and almost only defect is that it lacks 50hp as stated by all those who have tried it), the 037 and the Stratos without mentioning the Fulvia or Delta.
You see Lancia in the Fiat era as a simple prenium definition of a general product, which is not my case because I see the brand as a whole.
Simply two different points of view.
With Ferrari engines peaking at 215 horsepower, I know. We are far from the 410 of the Ghibli. Since the 1960's, Lancia has been marketing traction cars with the Flavia, 2000, Gamma, Thema (the Thema V8 3.2 is a traction car). So it's not a problem to market a traction, it won't damage anything. The famous Delta that everyone is asking for, one of the most emblematic models of the last few years, is a front wheel drive, and as you say even the Thesis, so the flagship. We're not going to rewrite history, but it's certainly not Stellantis who's going to hurt Lancia (while proposing a Chrysler 300 with a Lancia badge, yes), on the contrary, we're dealing with a city car sold only in Italy. I see Lancia as the brand of a brilliant engineer from Fiat who became a full-fledged manufacturer, an innovator who knew how to give his company a taste for world firsts in terms of technology. That's what should come back.
See and touch to believe only half of it as the saying goes.
Stellantis won't hurt Lancia... they are going to sink the brand just like Chrysler and Abarth.... To do what??? Peugeot that nobody wants and with engines with problems like it is not allowed. If you want to know more, the MonteCarlo is a rear wheel drive, the 037 is a rear wheel drive, the Stratos is a rear wheel drive and all the models before the Flavia (when Lancia was taken over by the Pesenti group, the biggest cement producer in Italy (Italcementi).
Only 200,037 have been produced for homologation, you're talking about rally cars that only have the shape of the marketed models and a beautiful confidential coupe originally planned for Fiat... What normal people know about Lancia in 2023 are tractions and a few videos, the recent second-hand cars from the glorious era costing one or more hundreds of thousands of euros. Okay, we'll hire something that will look like the future Lancia Delta IV in rallying (with an electric Q4), make photos in Montecarlo and Superga, produce some exclusive versions for wealthy customers and everyone will be happy, the brand image will be saved. Even better, with an electric platform, it has never been so easy to design a rear-wheel drive, or even a model with a motor in each wheel... As I doubt very much that Alfa will end up with Puretechs, Lancia could also turn to a specific supplier - why not Magneti Marelli, which produces electric motors for the Porsche Taycan - depending on its price positioning.
Yes for Lancia it's a possibility since Magneti has kept close ties with FCA but I don't believe it too much.
The Stratos was also a road SuperCar (the 288GTO was also created for homologation reasons for the group B).
The 037 also had a career in endurance.
The MC12 as well...!
The MonteCarlo was indeed planned for Fiat at the base but the management found (rightly) that it was useless to release a bigger Sport coupe under the brand cooled by the failure of the 130 (which was an excellent car but under the wrong blazon
This has always been the problem with Fiat... putting out great products but under the wrong brands, while in the agricultural world, it's the opposite and they always put out the right products under the right brands), and then quickly rebadging Lancia without letting the brand be able to work on the engine and put out the missing 50 hp.
At the time, 130 would also have been better off under Lancia, which had a more prestigious blazon.
When I see in the state that Citroën is reduced by Peugeot and well that leaves no doubt about the future of Lancia. For Stellantis to really work in time, it will be necessary to divide the group into 3 cells. One American, one Italian and one French. Otherwise there will be several brands that will be cannibalized.
At VAG this is already the case with Seat, which will soon be sold or put in a drawer.
On the contrary, I think that Fiat (which is already n°1 in sales in the group), Lancia, Maserati and Alfa Romeo are going to crush the French part of Stellantis, which is in a crisis situation very regularly, in a cyclical way. Don't forget that before the 208 I it was a debacle in Sochaux and the Chinese were called in to help. Peugeot has nothing to do with VW... The 600 is going to be a great success, while Peugeot's design is running on empty, their interiors are impractical, dark and cramped and their prices are excessive. The Fiat Group will be more profitable, more visually appealing and will rely on legendary models that will speak to people, while years after its creation DS is still not legitimate. As a proof, their future great models will be produced in Cassino, on the electrified Giorgio platform (the so-called STLA Large) where the know-how and the value is. Fiat has succeeded where Benz failed (also after Benz left billions of dollars), which is to really take control of Chrysler. As questionable as it may be, Marchionne has done that.
Yes, but Marchionne's mistake is to have wanted to keep the Giorgio platform only for Alfa or Maserati, whereas multiplying it under Lancia, like the Ghibli, would have been beneficial, not to mention the SW, which sells almost better than the classic three-box in the sedan world.
For the French part I agree with you especially for DS.
The problem is that Peugeot can't accept its real positioning... generalist, no more and no less, and invests crazy amounts of money in endurance racing for nothing instead of putting Citroën in its place, which would have everything to gain by sharing its components with Lancia, as this sharing has existed for ages.
DS should disappear. Opel should be sold as well as Chrysler (or add it to Citroën/Lancia) and let Fiat do low-cost, bring the 500 family for Abarth and let Peugeot sell generalist cars.
Otherwise I'm afraid that Abarth won't live long and they are able to cigar Citroën.
Fiat has more economic power because of its global reach while PSA is losing power year after year so what are they doing in endurance? And they did not renew a contract in F1 with Haas? We are walking on our heads and this shows again that Peugeot has an excessive ego and that it has not yet served them a lesson.
The mistake of FCA (yes I persist and sign) is to have sold Magneti because the development of PSA question engine it is not the top and I do not believe that Europe can really confirm stop of the thermal engines. This will change by then for sure.
You talk about Mercedes and well you can also add BMW with the Rover group which ended up in tatters. The problem is that they did the same thing as Peugeot. They decided to deprive the brands of their DNA and thought just about their main brand... we saw the disaster....😖. The same as PSA a few years ago with many brands that ended up... in the graveyards.
Marchionne succeeded with Alfa and Dodge, but he should have done the same with Lancia and that wouldn't have forced this messy marriage. Making a car more comfortable is very easy. He was looking for a Prenium car and had one under his nose! But as you say, he reversed the roles by plastering a typically American 300C.
It is important to remember that the brave Sergio first turned around the SGS company for Exor and that is why the Agnelli family placed him at the head of the Fiat group. He did this with limited means, trying to maximize the return on each investment. At that time, it was not a question of automotive passion (at that time, he did not have the means to relaunch Lancia), but rather to slash everything that was not profitable enough according to the family and to eliminate the group's debt in order to resell it. During Marquionne's presidency between June 1, 2004 and October 12, 2014 (when Chrysler was acquired), the value of the group's assets increased ninefold. The French press was quick to talk about a Peugeot takeover of Fiat, but I look at the real situation at the time of the merger, and that's not what the numbers say. FCA was an ultra-profitable and debt-free global company when PSA-Opel was a Franco-Chinese company operating in Europe and Africa. The situation is not at all comparable with BMW buying Rover or Daimler buying Chrysler. It is important to understand the balance of power. They should reinvest in Magneti Marelli, and we agree on that, because that's where a good part of the value lies.
I was not comparing the takeover of Fiat with Chrysler, but rather the takeover of Peugeot, which at the time took over the Chrysler Europe part (Citroën was forced to do so by the French government), where we saw all the brands go under. BMW did the same with Rover and MG by trying to forbid them to produce sports cars at the time and invested very little. Mercedes did the same with Chrysler.
The thesis is 230hp with a 3.2 V6 and if it's not 250hp, it's precisely because the front end has trouble keeping up, which is a huge flaw for a limousine.
When I talked about sharing the Giulia and the Ghibli, I was thinking of 2 models:
The Giulia 4WD (with much more comfort).
The Ghibli 4WD (with a more accessible price).
Now for the electric, it is not yet done because there is still a possibility of blocking in 2026 and seen as it is gone the agreement of the all electric will fly to pieces because if you look well the more the days pass and the more the number of countries which are against increase within the union because we see well that that poses ecological/economic/structural/geopolitical problems on the world plan.