Alexandre
The future of Italy's most emotional brand, Alfa Romeohas been on everyone's lips since the birth of Stellantis. We are witnessing the (countless) new relaunch of the range, which should make it possible, according to its CEO, to the to beat its all-time sales recordor more than 200,000 units by 2025.
So yes, there's the Tonale, but that's only in the end a technical and stylistic interlude between the Giulia / Stelvio and future models, the B-SUV leaked images and are unanimously acclaimed (but not in a good way)... One might ask, where is the brand going? Is it going to sacrifice its DNA on the altar of volume?
A closer look reveals that Alfa Romeo's future will also be closely linked to the Folgore range from Maserati.
| Presentation | Presentation | ||
|---|---|---|---|
| 2023 | Alfa Romeo 33 Stradale | 2020 | Maserati MC20 |
| 2024 | B-SUV | ||
| 2025 | Alfa Romeo Stelvio | 2021 | Maserati Grecale Folgore |
| 2026 | Alfa Romeo Giulia | 2025 | Maserati Quattroporte Folgore SWB |
| 2027 | E-SUV | 2025 | Maserati Levante |
| 2028 | C-sedan (Alfetta) | ||
| 2029 | C-SUV (new Tonale) | ||
| 2030 | Alfa Romeo GTV / Spider ? | 2022 | Maserati Granturimo / Grancabrio |
Indeed, the next all-electric Stelvio SUV will be based on the same principles as the Grecale Folgore (which is slow to arrive at dealerships).
The future all-electric Giulia will be based on Maserati Quattroporte. As a reminder, Maserati has decided to remove the Ghibli from the catalog and keep only the Quattroporte, which could be available in two sizes depending on the market (SWB and LWB).
The large Alfa Romeo SUV, which we talked about a short while agowill simply be based on the future Maserati Levante Folgore.
For the compact sedan that could be called Alfettaor the compact SUV that will replace the Tonale, will probably be based on the STLA Medium platform, so there's no link with Maserati.
It will be necessary to wait until 2030, and a very complete range, with a brand in full financial health, to hope to see a little'exoticismThese include an Alfa Romeo GTV (sedan coupé) based on a Maserati Granturismo, or a mass-produced Alfa Romeo Spider (not an ultra-limited model) based on a Grancabrio.
Too bad for the Ghibli, because in China, they love this kind of 2-volume model too.
They did talk about making the quattroporte SWB in ghibli format and the LWB in current quattroporte format.
Alexandre
Other brands operating in China have several lengths of sedan:
Look at Lexus, Bmw and Mercedes for example, whether it's the compact sedan, the tourer or the limousine, they all come in different sizes with medium-sized engines.
If Lancia and Maserati did the same, it would be a huge advantage.
I know that the Quattroporte will come in 2 sizes (you and I have already talked about this and it's great), but not enough to compete with Lexus, which has understood the market and quickly established itself as a leader, even though the Japan/China partnership has never been a happy one.
Imparato's talk of Alfa Romeo going big with an extended range is just a pipe dream, because no one can say whether the switch to electric will appeal to Alfa Romeo enthusiasts. As for the design, I dare to hope that the photos of the B-SUV are just a false rumor.
The Tonale is selling quite well, with light hybrids and the PHEV model, that's all we know for now.
I'd love to know what's happening with the Abarth 500e, if orders are coming in or not?
If electric Alfa cars don't work in France, it'll be the death of Alfa in France, just like Maserati. Fortunately for Alfa, its two main markets are Italy and the USA... in the meantime, there's always the possibility of fitting PSA hybrid engines in Alfa models with the STLA Medium platform. For the STLA Large... it's going to be very complicated unless they manage to fit phev.
As for the BSUV, I repeat once again that I have two different people who have confirmed the authenticity of the images.
Finally, for the Abarth 500E, I could try to get the figures for France from the RP.
From what I've heard from my side who work in the upper echelons of Stellantis in Switzerland... the design is definitely that and they themselves don't understand why Alfa is going back so low with all the brands available from the group. Tavares is the Macron of the car industry... he couldn't care less about customers as long as he gets rich... that's how many see him.
After that, if Alfa leaves France, we'll look for them abroad... no holds barred!
The Fiat 500e, whose production was halted for a few weeks, is worrying for the future of electric cars.
Similarly, it would be interesting to know how orders for the Fiat 600e are going?
PSA hybrid engines in Alfa cars? What a horror.
Italy and the United States are Alfa Romeo's main markets, but the manufacturer can't totally ignore other European countries.
If these really are the photos of the B-SUV, then you might as well go and buy a horror from Citroën. Or find an alternative I don't know where.
We can also look at the problem ahead as such: Alfa is going to try to sell a small compact SUV with a Peugeot engine in its leading market (both historically and in terms of sales). Made in Poland. Guaranteed flop. You can make fun of the MiTo, but it was built in Turin, modelled on the 8C and could boast magnificent red leather seats and 170 hp on the QV version. Today, I'm convinced they're going to make us an "all straight" and stick to the same powertrain as the 600e... Once again, Alfa's management is chasing hypothetical customers and neglecting its real market.
Imparato dared to say that the B-SUV will appeal to those who've owned a MiTo or Giulietta. So if the photos are true, he's either blind or just kidding. And worst of all is if they offer a PureTech engine apart from the electric version.
The MiTo wasn't so bad, its design was very good, it was pleasant but it wasn't exciting to drive. I had a MiTo QV for a few years.
What do you call "his real market" Fredo?
Except that the Mito (I'm sorry to repeat myself) is a product that should be found in a generalist's shop and should not fall below the Giulia.
By moving upmarket, Alfa has finally understood where its future lies (Lexus did at the time, and we've seen the results). Now, if Alfa merges partly with Maserati (and I'd like Lancia), the ABMs will laugh yellow officially, but will mourn and weep unofficially. Especially when you look at their design, and apart from Porsche, which will make it... I don't see how they're going to make it, because already in Switzerland, Lexus is flooded with requests for its VAN, even though the vehicle won't be released until next year.
But Alfa just needs to stop aiming at China, which doesn't have the sports sedan mentality, and target markets like the whole of America, Russia, the Middle East... and so on.
Except that making a 170hp Mito when it's precisely the power of an Abarth... it's hard to justify. The latest news is that Porsche and BMW don't make city cars, and that would be pointless, because even Mercedes, which tried with its first A-Class, was a failure (as was Smart, for that matter).
Alfa Romeo's real market is Italy. And the product that many are waiting for is a rear-wheel drive sedan just below the Giulia, a Giulietta/Alfetta designed in Milan, why not with the collaboration of a major Italian coachbuilder, and built in Italy. With at least a 200 hp four-cylinder version and a version of the same power for France. But just when we think we've hit rock bottom, we learn today from the British magazine Autocar that Alfa Romeo's teams are working on a minivan...
It should have read an electric Giulietta/Alfetta with at least 200 hp for France, at around 4.40 m, since Mercedes is going to offer a C-Class of this type. And the latest news is that BMW has just renewed its Mini, with the intention of selling a few. For the umpteenth reminder, a 1954 Giulietta is 3.98m long (but given the tiny widths and heights of this one - 1.55m by 1.32m - it would undoubtedly be necessary to make it longer to preserve proportions and adapt to changing body sizes). We need to resist the panzerization of today's car fleet if we want to offer models that offer real driving pleasure and clear feedback of information to the driver, something BMW is in the process of doing away with.
I have no problem agreeing with you on the Alfetta, but not on the power, which can't afford to go below 400hp because it has to be above the rest of the group (apart from the Maserati, which has to have equivalent power but a different philosophy).
So it's true? They want to make vans for Alfa Romeo? What the hell is the point? A van should be as pleasant to drive as a treadmill, and as luxurious as a Lancia!
If that's the case, Fredo, then you're right, we've hit rock bottom... we're digging way down!
Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, Lancia making a van is normal, but Alfa, BMW or others are heresy, especially if it's to make a Fiat/Peugeot look like an Alfa.
Even Lancia should make one, but based on Iveco, which has an excellent reputation in passenger transport and offers independent companies in Italy to make custom-made luxury vans (you buy the chassis from Iveco and then the companies do the interior and the holds).
Except that if BMW hadn't bought BMW, they wouldn't dare, because we've seen the I3 once again... which is a fiasco (BMW is actually cutting costs). One thing's for sure, the Alfetta can't be longer than 4 metres, otherwise it'll be stepping on the toes of the Giulia, and BMW is a perfect example of this with the M2, based on the M3, whose customers prefer the 3 because they don't understand the position of an M2 based on exactly the same chassis (a kind of clone).
The new 1 Series is based on the Mini chassis, and I'd like to see the exact sales figures compared to the old rear-wheel drive versions, but I don't think it's a panacea.
And the new Mini is built on a Chinese chassis (Great Wall Motors), a total admission of jem'enfoutisme... when the financiers are in charge instead of the engineers... As for the Alfetta, the first generation was 4.28m long, so in my opinion there's plenty of room for a double compact model, the Giulietta as a sedan and the Alfetta as a coupé. Having a compact proposition doesn't mean positioning oneself as a generalist, if the models offer the necessary dynamism, and have lines that make you want to turn around (and not because they're hideous). With today's presses, you can pretty much get away with anything in terms of shape, but designers have to hold back and produce harmonious, flowing designs. In the 2010s, this was a concern, as in the Gloria, of course, but also in the Citroën Metropolis. Today, the brand with the chevrons is showing us its new C3, and we're a long, long way from the elegance of that era. Fortunately, Olivier François at Fiat seems more lucid.
Except that Fredo making a Giulietta or Alfetta with its eye on the Giulia's dimensions risks cannibalizing the whole range, which isn't good either. I'm not talking about the Giulietta, but about the Mito, which has no place in the Alfa range, just like this Bsuv, which makes no sense and risks taking customers away from Abarth (paaaas biiiieeen).
The Giulia is the perfect compact sedan (4.50 m), as was the Altezza RS, or the Quattroporte 5 with its 5-meter limousine length.
Citroën, which is the prestige brand à la française (the whole world sees it that way, and the collector's prices of the SM prove it), has been shot down by Peugeot, as has Simca, because the Peugeots don't understand that their brand is, and will remain, a simple generalist brand that nobody wants to see any other way (we can talk about the failure of the RCZ), or the 605, which fell flat on its face against the 164, Thema or XM, or the 607 (they sold it outright to clear stocks) against the 166, and the highlight of the show is seeing Peugeot in Endurance racing instead of Alfa, Lancia or Maserati, not to mention the DS aberration.
But as you said, when you have financiers at the helm, you can't expect miracles.
If BMW hadn't bought Mini (sorry) they wouldn't have gone downmarket with its brand, and even then some Mini products didn't convince the competition at all and soon ended up in retirement with no model to replace them.
The Giulia is 4.63m, so there's plenty of room and repeated demand for a compact sedan in the 4.40m range. The Tonale is supposed to occupy this space, but if it brings in a new audience it doesn't convince the tifosi, and it's no coincidence that there's so much talk of the Mazda 3 here. Many Giulietta owners have no alternative to the competition, and even then, there isn't much of a choice. Do we want to get rid of these customers?
4m63 yes sorry I wrote 4m50.
No, but rather to win back old customers and new, affluent Alfiste customers... certainly, but for that you need concrete products that have the brand's pure DNA, like the Giulia and the Stelvio.
The more time goes by, the more I think there will be 3 main areas of development at Alfa.
- Exclusive models like the 33 stradale
- Models based on STLA Large will best represent Alfa's DNA, even if they will be electric, unfortunately.
- PSA-based models that will only be used to make money, and whose main market will be Europe.
I just hope that this third axis doesn't look too low-cost next to the rest, and that it doesn't damage the brand. Unfortunately, the look of the future B-SUV doesn't give us much hope.
The best thing to do is eliminate the third branch and leave it to Fiat and Abarth, and even then not with PSA engines. Does the Jeep sell well with this engine? I doubt it.
All this is very worrying... Whereas with Stellantis and Imparato's matamorphic declarations, we could have hoped to see Alfa Romeo finally become the Group's sporty-chic brand, by developing products adapted to the new automotive conditions but consistent with its heritage (I'm not criticizing the switch to electric, if this is to become the norm, but electric Alfa cars must first be Alfa Romeos...), instead we see a sort of meccano where ex-PSA platforms and engines will have to be fitted into low-range vehicles that will only have an ersatz scudeto as their emblem, but that the Group will be able to sell...) instead, we see a kind of meccano where ex-PSA platforms and engines will have to be fitted into low-end vehicles that will only have an ersatz scudeto as their emblem, but which will be marketed with reference to the brand's DNA. I don't think many idiots will fall for it, at least not the historic Alfisti. The others will be better off turning to Peugeot or Opel models, or even Fiat, which will be cheaper and have identical powertrains. Presenting a 33-unit New Stradale, with the underpinnings of a Maserati sold for 20 times less, is no way to keep Alfa Romeo's "legendary know-how" alive, while preparing to launch a confoundingly ugly product that will be a disgrace to the brand, with the added bonus of a PSA engine unanimously judged to be disastrous. Oh, yes, service invoices will be managed by the blockchain (proof that we're on the cutting edge of technology), while the "veloce" PHEV version with the PSA engine will have telephone rims and seats branded with the Biscione logo (doesn't that prove that it will be a real Alfa?...).
The new 33 was vital, but for the rest of the range below the Tonale will further tarnish the brand's image, so why make a Giulia and a Stelvio if you're going to go back to Peugeot clones... it just doesn't make sense.
I don't think the Alfistes will sign ✍️ the purchase contract for this kind of product.
A Chinese manufacturer of electric cars and suvs goes bankrupt... the cases fall EQC Honda e 500e Mx30 id3 and the hecatomb begins... bonuses and subsidies have built up a bubble of unsaleable recent second-hand cars, non-exportable to Africa with no juice for the Clim, then screwed by Chinese crap. So, small Stellantis, VW, MB, Renault, etc. dealers FORCED to overstock unsellable hybrid-electrics that depreciate faster than they recharge, (real calculation done: value BEV charge - BEV discharge < price before - price after recharge time: cqfd) then also forced to buy expensive, under-used special tools and borrow more for all that, they'd rather leave the show altogether, it's less breakage...Remain big bling bling dealerships that don't care about us...or Tesla and its interstellar void...of service...of parts...of approved and overpriced bodybuilders...and months of HS...Solution: a good reliable young timer, the scrapyard and your garage buddy. Mdrr...
An Alfa Romeo minivan by designer Mesonero-Romanos!
This guy's a comedian. To cover the whole market, I'm proposing an Alfa Romeo based on the Fiat Topolino and the Citroen Ami, with a 0-45 km/h speed range that'll knock your socks off.
Look out for the Fiat 600 hybrid, with its legendary 100-hp PureTech.
🤣😂 Stanislas, you had me dying laughing!🤣😂
It's a good thing Peugeot stopped making mopeds, or they'd be badging 103 SPXs as Alfa Romeos 😅
At the start of the merger, everyone in France was saying there were going to be changes .... yes indeed, but pure tech in the Fiat ... this engine is a real piece of shit, then some Alfa in disguise ... unfortunately Imparato is Italian only in name for the rest ... Marchione is dead for the second time and Tvares doesn't give a damn about the American market. Very rarely does he go to the USA: besides, his English is good, but not good enough to blend in in the USA, which Marchionne is capable of doing! It's all very sad ... and with the complicity of Stellantis' main shareholder, the Agnelli family, headed by John Elkann/Exor.
That's the problem, the boss is Exor. Elkhann is murdering his grandfather a second time, just as Lotus is doing to Chapman!
Marchionne had major automotive shortcomings, yet he resurrected Alfa but massacred Lancia.
When you see that Chrysler has been completely abandoned... they'd be better off selling the brand to the Chinese if they're not going to do anything with it, because Mercedes has already left it in a pitiful state... now it's in an artificial coma.
There were lots of Alfa Romeos in the B or C segments, including the 4.21 m Alfa Romeo 147, the 4.09 m 145, the 4.35 m Giulietta, and the 4.06 m MiTo.
I don't think Alfisti were unhappy with these not-too-large cars. There's a segment to occupy below the 4.53 m Tonale and the 4.64 m Giulia. A replacement for the Giulietta called Alfetta is justified, if it's a real Alfa Romeo.
It makes sense, but the question is whether there will be any real work done between the original PSA base and the final Alfa Romeo product.
But to start with the B-SUV, I'm afraid it's just a rebadging. It would be quite insulting if this vehicle had to make do with the engines available on the Peugeot 2008, without at least having a more powerful powertrain to offer. And yet I think that's what's going to happen...
For the C-segment vehicle, we'll see... but it's likely to be the same thing.
But replacing the Mito... is not justified, nor is the small SUV 🚙. No, it doesn't bring anything in terms of image, but the profits are ridiculous, even borderline non-existent, and without profits there's nothing to be done.
I think a lot of us want Alfa to make a clear statement about being a premium brand, but we mustn't forget that many Alfisti don't have the financial means to buy a vehicle costing more than €60k. To release only vehicles in this price bracket would be to turn your back on those people who may have been customers of the Giulietta, Mito, 147, 146, 145 and many others. This is exactly what the Giulia and Stelvio are accused of.
Don't forget that it was the Mito and Giulietta that single-handedly held the brand together for many years.
I think the brand needs to reach a fairly wide audience. It's a gamble worth taking. A satisfied customer of a future Giulietta/Alfetta might want something bigger later on.
Alfa is no Maserati either.
Except no, we don't want to see Alfa become a premium brand, given that this is Lancia's role, and Alfa has always been and will remain a sports brand. The Giulia and Stelvio have never been criticized for their price, because they're the cheapest in their respective categories, yet they've been the benchmark from the start, and the quadrifoglio versions have had no trouble selling, just as the GTA and GTAm have.
And no, Alfa isn't Maserati because of its price, but because it's below Ferrari when it comes to products that don't come under the prancing horse. A Maserati sports car has to be both sporty and luxury at the same time, and to have this kind of product in its range, Lancia would have to be put on track 🛤️ because that's where it belongs, producing luxury sports cars that don't exist at Maserati.
A lot of people want to buy a Ferrari but can't because it's too expensive, a Lexus because it's too expensive, a Jaguar because it's too expensive... so they have to save their money and be patient.
"If you want to earn a living, all you have to do is work. If you want to get rich, you have to find something else." (From Alphonse Karr / Les Guêpes)
What's more, if Alfa really wants to establish itself in the USA 🇺🇸, what's the point of cloning them from Dodge? By working on the base... well, that's going to take a lot of effort, and won't change a thing if they're PSA engines.